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Post by Admin on Feb 13, 2016 17:30:38 GMT
11:45 30 min sit - eyes closed - sat upright in a chair one hand holding the other
significantly shifted posture 3 times; checked timer twice; switched hands twice
ocean of flame
language/too much imagery
started with intentional control of nonjudgemental focus of attention by moving attention first to center of the room then to center of the street outside then to an arbitrary point in the atmosphere then to the sun as a whole
moved to breath; took a while to focus on it strongly
after some time with breath, did a mindful body scan of musculoskeletal system then interoception scan during which I imagined caressing my hollowed organs (also felt my heart beat with my right hand)
mentalization/allowed mind to wander - mostly focused on observing thoughts arising, existing then passing away; very relaxing and felt strong at letting thoughts come, stay and go; focused on awareness of conscious awareness (thinking of thinking, observing the observer, no-self feeling briefly and occasionally)
relationship focus: thought of my network of interactions and relationships; through family, friends, unknown influential figures, strangers throughout the world; drifted out into cosmic thinking: gravitational relationships, sub-atomic "space" and interactions/simultaneity of sub-atomic existences (pondered a thing being simultaneously solid and transient/fixed and mutable/dependable and arbitrary)
moved back to and dedicated the rest of the time (about 15 min - this was the first timer check) to breathing
very happy with results
eventually "clicked in" with feeling of arising, sustaining and subsiding - non-imagistic mental sensation
image of an ocean of flames arose: during moments of absorption in breath being the feeling of submersion in the flames (but no sight, no feeling, no concept) and during moments of drifting attention like the flames on the surface licking the air above the ocean (literally felt like drifting attention was moving my experience by "licking" my attention away from the object) only saw this image after being in that state for a while; noticed after I could control attention a lot more successfully when allowing breath attention to be observed arising and letting go of any expectation to sustain it (i.e. knowing from the outset of arising of attention focus that it will pass just to be regained again); also noticed when I sort of described the process to myself or constructed images to correspond to the experience (tendencies that were automatic), attention was less stable.
Definitely moments (especially during last half) that were marked by sensation observation absorption, other moments marked by conceptual absorption in what I was doing/experiencing, and flecks of moments of what felt like a non-conceptual, autonoetic sense of being/knowledge. in retrospect, I think of these different levels of being like swirls of stained glass where different colors are the differing levels all swirling together - some to be experienced here, some there.
Feels good that I could sit that long (especially being hungry and a little sore in my lower back) and still really enjoy it
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Post by Admin on Feb 13, 2016 17:34:40 GMT
I just read your post after I wrote mine and found some similarities interesting (e.g. going through body/sensation then mind/mental levels while nipping at something that I am calling "non-conceptual/autonoetic"
Curious if you see these as similarities or if you feel there is inherently something different in our approaches that leads to an overall contrast (particularly in "non-conceptual/autonoetic" level)
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 13, 2016 19:47:13 GMT
To develop concentration the object of concentration must become more and more refined. Which is why I start with body and get "smaller". This is my current approach. The article I linked shows my goals, the milestones of greater concentration. The Advanced Milestones are Jhanas. I'm hoping to get there someday. I can tune my mind there now but it is a cursory glance as my concentration isn't strong enough to make it workable or stable. This I hope to improve as to become absorbed in them. My intention now is to traverse the concentration territory intentionally, slowly, aware. I'm starting from the bottom with this practice. I want to be a master of the mind. Hoping to master the concentration states and the insight stages (a la vipassna) and one day teach it. A Pragmatic Dharma teacher.
I think that traversing gross to more subtle experiences is no coincidence. It is the natural path of the inquiring mind to seek something upon which to stand.
I'm interested to see what you a. mean and b. experience when you say non-conceptual/autonoetic. Are non-conceptual and autonoetic different or synonymous?
I don't there is something inherently different in what we generally experience but our emphasis is currently different meditationally speaking. You run through some etheric practices, let experience be, watch the breath, and try to gain some insight into the cosmos. Among other things. Whereas when I meditate I'm strictly concentrating. I do other exercises less often but I don't record them here. Neither of our approaches are better or worse. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. By etheric I mean the internal practices.
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Post by Admin on Feb 13, 2016 22:01:31 GMT
Gross to subtle is a great way to put it.
I had begun to think of the practice in that way after reading (about half of) the Yoga Sutras in which Patanjali outlines concentration as going through 4 stages: gross, subtle, blissful life, union with brahman/no-self
autonoetic, in the sense that I am using it, points to non-conceptual knowing (experiential knowledge of the 'knower' knowing objects and the 'knower'; sort of like observing the 'observer' observe the 'observer' as well as other objects; I've also been experimenting with observing the 'observer' from the vantage of the object in hopes of aiding in the absorption process of enhancing concentration - not to become attached to or identify with the object, but to temporarily use the object as a tool to strengthen concentration). I tend to think of dan siegel's acronym SOCK for different levels of knowledge ('knowledge' in his usage, I feel, identifies the overall tone of the experience rather than merely cognitive knowledge): Sensation knowledge, Observation knowledge, Conceptual knowledge, autonoetic Knowledge. To me it would be sort of like a full knowledge of experience.
Your recognition in our difference having something to do with our attitudes toward experience is well-put. I have the sense that my aim toward God (whatever "it" is that I am aiming toward) includes an expectation that any achievement (even a non-dual one) will occur (or co-occur) with an experience of it - not isolatable as "my experience" per se, but "an" experience. Experience being analogous with consciousness and awareness; it's just that experience may or may not be marked by varying degrees of awareness or consciousness. Yours seems to be the stance that the "it" is not experience, but something else... non-duality, I guess.
I think I am beginning to see the place for considering the "experience of non-experience", but to wipe out experience is like saying that there is nothing - not in the sense that the world is illusory, but that nothing is - which is an idea that is a helpful image (a map), but should not be taken as an actual description of the condition of reality (the territory).
I have to say that I am pleased we don't exactly see eye to eye. If we just agreed on everything, this forum would just be a place for us to inflate each other which would not be productive. I also am glad we can exchange differing even opposing views with respect and non-judgement. People sometimes hear others' opinions as a threat to something; this is difficult to navigate when trying to hash out real and honest self-explorations. The challenge I have had to face (embarrassingly enough) of feeling rubbed the wrong way by another thinking lowly of my opinion has been marked only by a gradual improvement. Even with Kim or you or someone else who I trust a lot and feel accepted by, I sometimes have a nagging sense of inadequacy if any given view I express is looked at as immature or underdeveloped - so I'm glad I have not had that feeling very much on this forum. Very helpful!
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 14, 2016 14:38:24 GMT
12:30am 30 minute meditation
Very nice sit very concentrated. Began at body, worked to nose. In the middle I strengthened lowest back and posture was sturdy. Breathed well. Sucked air into tip of nostrils and held concentration there tight and breathed out of nostrils held focus tight. This was the last few minutes. Visited by a couple spirits. The first was Lilith who appeared evil and said we could have been friends. I apologize, she turns from demonic, batty to human looking. She's happy. Later there was a feeling in the stomach chakra of a tight feeling like a pebble. And if I just sat there a ghostly feeling of fog would descend over me relaxing me. Later I put another 10 minutes on the clock after 20. Then a spirit came who said have you been concentrating? I said I felt trancy but no. He said Concentrate! He was serious! That's when I got into the nostril thing. It's very hard to just concentrate. There's a lot going on. Subtle. Good sign I'm advancing
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 14, 2016 14:44:43 GMT
SOCK sounds awesome; tried all 4 quickly. Felt no-self on autonoetic. I like that map!
Nothingness is actually the 7th Jhana. There's still an observer but there is nothing there. So technically nothing is a layer of the mind.
I think you nailed the non-experience of nonduality in the 3rd paragraph. I think we are communicating beautifully.
Here's a bit from Daniel Ingram's pragmatic dharma masterwork Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha (MTCTB):
FRUITION
This is the fruit of all the meditator's hard work, the first attainment of ultimate reality, emptiness, Nirvana, God or whatever you wish to call it. In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else. Reality stops cold and then reappears. Thus, this is impossible to comprehend, as it goes completely and utterly beyond the rational mind and the universe. To “external time” (if someone were observing the meditator from the outside) this lasts only an instant. It is like an utter discontinuity of the space-time continuum with nothing in the unfindable gap.
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 14, 2016 15:40:57 GMT
9:55am 20 minute sit
Great posture. Great breathing. Focused at nostrils. Great concentration. Very relaxing. Very pleased. Sense potential for even greater concentration. Tried to be calm and not focus too hard but to sustain. Relaxation as a result.
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Post by Minute man on Feb 14, 2016 17:36:35 GMT
I just have a minute to reply
Thought I'd share this from a book by Ajahn Sumedho:
“If there’s anything that blocks someone in their meditation, it’s the view that they’ve attained something from it!”
Thoughts? This seems to echo the process element of experience as being crucial.
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 14, 2016 19:10:13 GMT
If you're sitting there in meditation thinking and not observing then you'll make no progress. The process view is due to practice and insight, not an intellectual understanding.
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Post by Admin on Feb 14, 2016 20:27:47 GMT
2:30 - 30 min sit
right away felt great. have to type quick, so I'll annotate catch phrases:
"seeing" - immediately noticed I have been visualizing body scans/interceptions as well as attention-calibrating visualizations of near and distant objects (to start a concentration session by "aiming" focus at different objects) with a directionally biased lean; meaning that I always see these things as a visual image rather than "seeing" them experientially/auto-noetically; also, always see them from the front (front of arms, front of intestines, objects in the universe in "front" of me) rather than seeing them as though 1: I am them or 2: I see them spherically/cosmically from the inside out - in all directions; I think this is where "cosmic consciousness" can help - simply dropping direction and spacial orientation as a starting point (by the way, my brother just texted me that scientists just measure gravity waves! super exciting, look it up)
"muscle relaxation method applied to distractions" - i learned a long time ago that if i have trouble with tense muscles (say while i'm playing guitar), one method of relaxing is to build tension in that particular muscle to an extreme then let it go; also just read ajahn sumedho write about handling doubt in the same way: amplify the doubt so that it is ridiculous then laugh and let it go; seeing the arising and persisting of distractions (exterior or wandering mind) the same way was awesome. it led me to think less "it's ok" then return to breath and allowed me to just observe distraction, amplify if necessary (i.e. if it doesn't dissipate right away) then watch it pass/fade
"eyes" - I got really sleepy about 20 min in, so I stood up, stretched a couple of standing yoga poses, sat back down but taller and when i closed my eyes, the vivid image of my own eyes staring intently at me over various cogs and gears like machinery was like I was staring in a mirror; this image soon disappeared and I felt like I was observing myself as though I was not just the "observer" observing the observer; but I was the observation/act of observing; definite sense of non-self for the moment and marked by directionless fullness of autonoeticism
"images" - noticed again that as language and images were observed (allowed to live and breath with me), they passed and then deeper clarity was reached
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Post by Admin on Feb 15, 2016 1:50:06 GMT
13-15 min total sit with one break when Deas got out of bed and I put him back
really rushing mind at first
eventually calmed after watching sensations/images/feelings/thoughts arise, dwell and pass (another siegel acronym: SIFTing experience)
focus to origin of breath; first breathed as i was born; breathing apparatus (body) and breath (air) formed from material that has been recycled countless times in the universe and is an infinitesimal portion of the 0.51% of the density of the universe (all visible matter=approx .01%(heavy elements) + .5%(hydrogen and helium)); the process of breath being turned into energy (physical life) with seemingly no effort or consideration for the energy involved in constantly flowing through that process; in light of these insights, experienced moment of body fading into seeming wholeness of and process of reality - like a blink, not a bang; soon back to original state of mindfulness and "I-ness" but with gratitude and peace from contextualization of "self" and illusion of permanence; transience a big part of this sit - transience of SIFT, transience of body, transience of singularity/individuality of mind, transience of frustration
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 15, 2016 2:08:57 GMT
SIFT! Another good one!
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 16, 2016 14:59:42 GMT
11:20pm 20 minute sit
Didn't think I'd make it on the mat today. Proved myself wrong.
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Post by Sindder Streg on Feb 17, 2016 1:11:39 GMT
5:40pm 15 minute sit
Freeform style. Tried to concentrate toward the end to no avail.
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Post by Shot in the dark on Feb 17, 2016 14:06:06 GMT
5:30M 15 min sit
Took a quick shot of espresso as soon as I woke up to try to avoid falling asleep/twilight dreaming during session. Helped pretty well
Body scan/Interoception with emphasis in moving from concept-only/dominant mindful awareness - I think I am studying here (the C of SOCK) too often. It took a little effort to get there and more effort to stay. Constant redirecting of focus to the non-conceptual knowing. Helped sometimes to start off with the concept (thinking of the process of the oxygen/carbon dioxide exchange in the lungs for example) then move to "this is the experience of a body breathing"; not no-self, but definitely a different level of the experiential.
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